Achieving Results In Unpredictable Times

Achieving Results in Unpredictable Times Andy Martin

Achieving results in unpredictable times means having an effective leader like Andy Martin, enterprise client partner for Franklin Covey Europe. Andy sees potential in someone so clearly that the person sees the potential in themselves.

The requirement is for individuals to be willing to engage and be open to change. Environments will change. “The principle of renewal spotlights what as a leader I have to work at,  work through,  work with and work out to sustain myself.  Wellbeing, resilience, and mental wealth play a huge role in the leadership journey.  I pay attention to what doors are being opened and how this converges with my giving.  Peak performance comes from stretch within my competence range”says Andy Martin.

Effective leaders are clear about what they are looking for, what trends are emerging.   They have a focus on who they are, on their characters, and on what they are learning.  Essentially it involves capturing what is working and how the organisation can draw on it,  prioritising how and where leaders need to and decide to spend their time.

“The requirement is to be different, to be agile and to have a stretch, while learning continuously from the different situations that present themselves”.


Paula: 00:00:00 Welcome to Tesse Talks with your host Tesse Akpeki, and co-host Paula Okonneh, where we share with you top leadership and management strategies. This is a journey of discovery. We are learning that leadership is personal and professional, and we hope you will walk with us in this adventure.

Our guest today is Andy Martin. And we will be talking about achieving results in unpredictable times, Andy is an enterprise client partner for Franklin Covey Europe, where he is responsible for managing some of the firms most strategic global clients and growing the UK business. With over seven years experience in the performance improvement and leadership development industry, Andy is passionate about personal development, broadening perspectives, and living a life of adventure. After quickly becoming one of the youngest and top sales executive in North America, he relocated to London along with his wife, Katie. Thank you so much, Andy, for coming on to Tesse Talks.

Andy Martin: 00:01:25 Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Tesse: 00:01:29 Andy, thank you so much for coming to Tesse Talks. And I’m going to ask you, I’m very curious about how did you end up in your role with Franklin Covey?

Andy Martin: 00:01:40 Yeah it’s an interesting story and I was  a bit of an anomaly with the organization. Maybe just start out. There are two foundational experiences I had when I was in university. One of them was working with an organization called young life where we helped build a mentoring program. Or was it part of a mentoring program where we helped middle-school students Grow in their faith and in their own journey and help them in there along the way.

And I was the team leader of the team and we were building out this group and furthering the mission in the geography where we were located. And I just had this passion for developing the people on my team. I saw people start to do things that they never thought that they could do before and that kind of direct relationship and seeing that impact really stuck with me.

And then the other thing was  I worked for this organization called Southwestern where it was this ridiculous internship where , they ship you off to  random state for the summer. And you. Work 80 hours a week, knocking on doors, selling educational children’s products.

And, that’s, that, that was  probably one of the most foundational experiences I’ve ever had. Surprisingly I did it for multiple summers, so I went back after my first summer and after my first summer it was really challenging. And I came and I said, I will never do sales ever again.

And then as time went on, I started to notice all the ways that I had grown through that experience in terms of my own resilience, in terms of my own determination, setting up goals, understanding how to connect with other people and even different ways. And  it just stuck with me. I was like, wow,  everything that I learned during that experience helped me become a better person.

If that make sense? And so those two experiences, developing other people.  And  what I learned through sales and business development and When I graduated from university, I then went to something called the Knoxville fellows program. That was a program for newly graduated university students to help them  integrate their whole person before they go into the marketplace. So it’s a mix of learning servant leadership skills with the gaps within your city and where you live and how those things connect and shaping your purpose. And in that program we went through the Seven Habits for Highly Effective People, and that was part of the leadership curriculum that we went through.

And it was one of those experiences where in that program, they were looking for somebody to be their person to work with Franklin Covey while they were in that program. So there was a partnership there and based on my past experiences and my passions, they were like, he’s our guy. And so it was literally just, it was a divine intervention, and the stars aligned. And so I had the opportunity to pilot this program, they created this position for me and I worked under a gentleman named Jim Clanarus  and learned from him for that year. And then after that year they gave me the Tennessee and Kentucky markets and helped me manage those markets.

And then that’s how I ended up in the organization in North America. And we took off and I just, I look back now and it’s been six years since I started. So it was really interesting. And then, a year ago, and we were talking before the podcast started a year ago my wife and I decided to relocate to London from Knoxville, Tennessee. And we just, we’re now working with Franklin Covey, Europe and their European division. And so it’s been a, it’s been a wild ride. But I’ve loved it.

Tesse: 00:06:05 That’s an amazing story. It’s very inspiring and it sounds like even experiences, which originally might not have seen leading to where you are now actually found in blocks to where you are now. So every experience counts. And then also you’re the youngest person in when you started the job in , in the States.

I remember in my interview after I finished the fellows program they were concerned a little bit about my age. Cause they normally. Hire people that have a lot of experience already in that space.

And I remember I, I went down to Atlanta for this interview and I had to address that concern and step out a little bit, and be bold and kind of address , that concern that they have. And Yeah. So they took a risk on me. And I think it paid off it’s gone really well, but yeah, it was one of the, one of the younger folks for my position.

Paula: 00:07:09 This is fun. So fantastic. It’s fantastic. I’m sitting here thinking that. Wow.  As a mother of millennials, And they’re also young to the listening audience. The inside joke is that I met Tessie when I was 13 and that was 10 years ago, which makes me funny three.


Paula: 00:07:35 I listened to you talk about how you started off selling. Was it books with Southeastern. And you knocked on doors. And sold these educational books, and then that led you to the fellows program and. As you said that, I thought this is a marvelous experience that you had because so some of our listeners who I’m sure children, they probably have children who are thinking, Oh, there’s nothing in my life that had done that.

And give me such a, can give me a job in corporate America or wherever else they want to go. But obviously there’s something that you learn there that has led you to the job that you have today. And they experienced if you had not they were very valuable. So what was some of those principles from those experiences that you think would have guided you in to your decision and making this career move?

Andy Martin: 00:08:29 Yeah, so there’s a couple things that, that come to mind that have stuck. And I would also say. That it’s a little bit of a journey, right? So these are evolving as we learn and make decisions and spend more time reflecting. One of, one of the things that I learned through the Southwestern sales internship was there was a quote that they had, and it was right now, you’re becoming the person you will one day be.

Paula: 00:09:04 I love that.

Andy Martin: 00:09:05 And that quote really stuck with me. It was like my choices, how I’m showing up my decisions that I’m making, what I do right now this day here has a direct correlation to the person I will one day be. And so with that kind of train of thought, it was like, Okay then really think about, and spend time reflecting on who is that person that I want to be.

And no matter how I feel right now in this moment, or how much doubt I have right. About what that looks like, because I’m not that yet there just make the next right decision in alignment with who that person is. And so that was one kind of principle that, that stuck out right. Is making decisions based on who I want to be, not as much what I feel like I should do.

And so what I mean by that is I see a lot of people that, and I can get stuck in this trap as well, but.

That, that idea of really thinking about. Who is that person that I want to be one day. And if that’s true, my decisions right here, and right now on this day, have a direct correlation to that. And I would boil that down in a simplistic language, saying your habits, right? Your habits kind of form who you are.

And so shifting. The mindset when you’re thinking about your career to say, instead of thinking about, okay, what does society tell me I should be, what do I feel like my external circumstances are telling me that I should be? Is that really true, or do I really need to think about who am I?

My, how am I wired? What are my giftings and what are my passions? And make decisions based on that. And in alignment with your values and that leads to, some of those things are probably going to be scary. And so the phrase that has stuck with me is if you’re scared to do it, you probably should say yes,  and there’s that whole body of work around, flow States and peak performance.

And what they would say is

when you’re trying something new that goes beyond your boundaries, incrementally attempt 10% beyond your limit. That’s your sweet spot. And so if you can stretch yourself 10% beyond where you are now, your current state, that’s in that threshold where it’s still within your competence range.

If that makes sense, you’re not doing something ridiculous that you just, you probably shouldn’t be doing, but yeah, it’s in that sweet spot. So that stuck with me is if it’s scary say yes and the other thing that I’ve learned is every step in this journey has been, if you’re using corporate terms like a pilot, essentially, right?

There’s been nothing that has been a center line or kind of cookie cutter about each of these roles. And it’s not because I was really trying to do that. It was just, you’re willing to be clear about what you’re looking for and you’re willing to add value in certain ways and state that, put a name on it and ask for it, things just happen around you.

And it’s not that it’s super intentionally planned out necessarily, but for example, coming to the UK, I just knew that I had a lingering curiosity to move internationally. I could just sense it in my gut that I wanted to live outside of North America at some point in my life.

And I didn’t know if that was actually going to happen or if that was a, a pipe dream or what, and I just started noticing that the environment around me and conversations around me from my friends from my  boss, et cetera. They started seeming like they were pointing in that direction and then my wife went into transition , so the principle that I would pull out from that is pay attention to what doors are being opened. If that makes sense,


Paula: 00:14:36 A lot of sense.

Andy Martin: 00:14:38 And if you take that information with your giftings and passions, et cetera, then those things start to converge a little bit. But that takes time and reflection and analysis, to be able to make sense of all that. So that’s another principle that I would say  in a nutshell, I’d say thinking outside the box, and being bold and being willing to ask that. And then the last thing that I would say is you got to have people around you that believe in you more than you do in yourself. And I can think of two people Kent Vaughn and Jim  C. who, when I joined Franklin Covey and I was looking at this big mountain, that I just did not think I was going to be able to do this. It was way outside of anything I’d ever done before. And they continuously came alongside me and said, you can absolutely do this. I see this in you. And I didn’t believe it in myself at that time. But they did and that, made up for my own lack of belief.

And Stephen Covey has a quote where he says a leader is someone that can see potential in someone so clearly more than they can see it in themselves and be able to pull that out. And I think that’s so true.

Paula: 00:16:11 I love that phrase, that last leader is someone who can see potential in someone so clearly… more than that person can see it in themselves.

Andy Martin: 00:16:21 And that’s paraphrasing a little bit, but it’s close.

Tesse: 00:16:25 That’s good enough for me. I know the first time that I, I saw you. I just thought therein, is it very strong kind, compassionate leader?

And I’m not just saying it because just for saying it, because I believe that to be true and I still believe it to be true. And the way that I see you, you see you’re continuing to grow. There’s much growth left it, it’s just that, you’ve you’re very amazing. And what you’ve said to me really there’s a guy whose work I read, he’s called David Taylor clus and he runs it and he’s written a book and he runs a Facebook group called mindset Mondays.

It’s about rewiring your thinking. Every Monday, I actually it’s my guilty pleasure. That’s where I go back and listen. And David’s work is, so I made the call to speak to all those things. You were talking about growth mindset. Yeah, actually, and actually that thing about asking for the right kind of support and have the right people through you  and guiding you and actually network with so everything you said, very parsley points to people being open to learning, even from those things that are not going very well.

We’ve had a true very tricky, it’s still very tricky now with the COVID pandemic. All the things around us, people not being really certain of anything, you can’t plan anything. And I know that it’s really very easy to focus on the negative because it is not a great time.

It’s not. There’s the kind of like people have died, people we know and so on, in very sad time and we have to own that sadness. But somehow from, some somehow in these really sad, depressing, emerging time, there’s some positives. And my question really is your thoughts on any positives that you think are emerging for you or for people that you’re not from the work that you do out of this horrible pandemic that we’ve never seen before?

Is there anything that there’s imagined from this horrible time?


Andy Martin: 00:18:30 Yeah. And I can maybe speak from it and to two lenses. One is. What I’m seeing, with individually, personally as well as within my kind of community or network. And then secondly, what we’re seeing was Franklin Covey, right?

In the work we do with organizations. Some of the things I mentioned that when we came here we moved here right before the pandemic started. And we uprooted, right? Our communities, our friendships and moved very far away. And when you’re used to achieving right at a certain level, then you are planted into a new scenario where the environment is totally different and in the middle of a pandemic and the results are either not there yet, or they’re slow right. Due to everything that’s going on. And that was really difficult.

And what I mean by that is I think I had formed the pattern of:  as long as I was performing at a certain level and achieving certain results, then I was   fine. Everything was fine. Emotionally, mentally, et cetera, put me in this new situation where it’s not happening at the speed that I want it to, and it really messed with me  emotionally, mentally, and it was really difficult. And so I had to pause and say, okay, why is that?

And what it made me do is COVID have this time of lockdown has made me look and say, gosh, I was basing too much of my identity and worth in the results that I’m getting. And I had to reframe that and shift my paradigm to then say, you know what, at the end of the day, like it’s going to be okay. And I had to shift the focus to who I am, and my character and the things that are within my control. And what I saw within that happened as you start to increase your level of ownership, right?

It’s your level of engagement and your morale right starts to go up. So that was a huge important lesson for me to learn was that it’s going back to, it’s much more about who you are, you’re right now you’re becoming the person you will one day be . Focusing on that and what really matters most.

And the results will come and go, environments will change.  So that was really a helpful lesson for me. The other thing that  did was it really allowed me to slow down and reflect on is my life in alignment, right? The way that I’m spending my time, the decisions that I’m making, the choices that I’m making, is that in alignment with my values or is there a lack of alignment?

And having that time of reflection was really beneficial for me.  And as well as others that I in speaking with right. That some people are talking about how, gosh, they’re literally, they saw the leaves change for the first time in their lives. They noticed birds in their gardens. If they’re fortunate, they heard the birds for the first time.

It’s it took us down right to this level of humanity that perhaps we forget about in our busy lives because we get too busy. The other thing that I’ve seen and have experienced is in my marriage. It’s it was really good.

Where you can’t just a hard situation comes up or a difficult conversation comes up. And whereas in the past, maybe we would ignore certain things or move on quickly and go hang out with friends or work or whatever. We can do that. You’re stuck in the same room. And you had to work things out. To force that.

To force Katie and I had to work through things together and have difficult conversations. That was really, I think we’re coming out better in our marriage. There was one other thing that was a huge shift for me. So thinking about the principle of renewal, right?

How to maintain your own wellbeing. I think I would use the excuse in the past that I’m too busy to work out sometimes or to eat healthy or to get up early or whatever it was. And this environment changed the paradigm to say, no, you have got to do these things to sustain yourself, period. It’s not like a nice to have. It’s a necessity now because of the intensity of the environment.

So those are a few things. And then from what we’re seeing across, our clients and other organizations, I think there is a level of intensity that is happening right now. Some of that can cause negative things if it’s not taken care of properly, but on the other side people are engaged more than they have been in a long time.

There’s a readiness. There’s an openness for change right now that we haven’t seen in awhile. And those organizations that can really tap into that and put frameworks and structure and move their people through that effectively are doing some transformational things. It’s pretty amazing.

Some of the innovation that’s coming out of it, and new ideas. I was talking to an organization yesterday that was able to normally it would take them several months to hire 70 people that they needed for a really critical project. And they were able to find a way to do it in three days, 70 people.

Tesse: 00:24:41 Wow!

Paula: 00:24:42 I don’t think that hit me. Said that again.

Tesse: 00:24:44 Absolutely.

Andy Martin: 00:24:46 Because of all the processes they had in place, it would normally take several months to hire. 70 people, they did it in four days, fundamentally changing the way that they’re going to hire in the future because they realize all the stuff that they don’t have to do or what, all the stuff in the process that wasn’t necessarily adding value and they just did away with it.

There’s a lot of organizations right now that are implementing ways of working that  foster a much better employee experience  in terms of how they’re managing meetings doing things to encourage people, to take care of themselves.

It’s just introduced a level of humanness that can be forgotten sometimes.

Tesse: 00:25:40 This is fantastic. When you talk about something that would have taken months longer just taking a few days. That’s brilliant. I have two questions. Follow up questions about this. And again, thanks so much for your clarity about this and your focus on how things are different.

So let’s rewind to, when you said that the results were like the way you started looking at results and  that it was about the results. And that has changed. Now, let’s go back to that, out of comfort with this right in that space of results, because what was happening there in that space where whoops, this is  what I was using to define success for me.

And then I’m seeing something different than the speed is different. What, what was going on with the results? How were the results looking? And just to walk through that, I think would be really helpful for me.

Andy Martin: 00:26:30 Part of it is I think a difference in cultures.  Our organization has a much bigger brand in the United States than it does in the UK. There, there was this first foremost, this ability and need to adapt to a new culture. And the second piece was my role was to basically build out and expand A market that I’ve never been in before. So there’s absolutely different ways of doing things culturally in the UK than there was in the U S and I’ve noticed that relationships and things like that take more time, right?

In the US you can show up to meetings and people know what to expect, and there’s a way of doing things and it’s different. It’s a bit different.  So I had to go through all that. you  know, to learn that. And the second thing was there was a global pandemic going on and people went into survival mode for several months.

It was like all of a sudden there was so much change going on that you literally had to shrink down your  vision for your capacity  for what you can handle. So there was this quietness. And it’s passed, right?  It’s ramping up. Organizations are making decisions right here and now about the future of their organizational strategies.

But that’s what I meant is there was a slowness, whereas the way that I did things then . Netted out and translated to results. Those same things, those same behaviors did not translate the same way in a new context and a new culture. I had to peel back and say, okay, what is working? What’s not? How do I combine what’s good and what can be improved and come up with a new way of doing things?

Tesse: 00:28:31 And that’s actually beautiful. I was very fortunate to be at one of the Franklin Covey’s programs called In The Hallway. And it just helped me to understand this period of transition.

What I think it helped me to understand the most was that, when you’re in the corridor between two doors, use that time.

Andy Martin: 00:28:49 Yeah.

Tesse: 00:28:50 And it sounds from what you were saying that you actually used that time well, to transition from your expectation and the focus on results to not just doing and looking at results, but to being. And actually seeing being as well as doing a success. But one of the things that touched me and I’m a relationship person, anybody who knows me knows I’m big on the nation ships.

And so is Paula. But one of the things that came out for me was when you talked about your, your marriage and how it gave you time not to run away from things out of that marriage, which is good, got even better by attending to that relationship.

And I think, from COVID and what’s happened the attending to relationships and how we can be in ourselves and be the inner leader coming out, rather than the outer leader going in. Actually having that balance and getting that balance. That is a big result, I think.

Andy Martin: 00:29:47 Yeah. And, going back to habit one, right? The Seven Habits: Be Proactive. And it is that in a nutshell, right? Is if you can narrow your focus to what is within your circle of influence and what is within your control that starts to grow. And so I think it’s about setting up a winnable game, right?

That’s within your control .And, while there may be things on the periphery that are not exactly in your control. How do you set up a winnable game that drives a sense of engagement that gets you up out of bed every morning. And maybe that can be conversations within your relationships, right?

It can be connections. It could be taking care of your health. It can be more focused on activity in your behavior. And so I think, it really does take a shift in the paradigm in your thinking that to reframe the situation and say, okay, what someone else had a quote that said suffering is caused by a lack of not meeting expectations.

Suffering is caused by Expectations or something like that. I think that was so that I had certain expectations in my head around what this dream would look like. And you have to go through this change journey. And, okay, this is the new reality. Take stock. And interpret what does this mean for us and what are we going to do about it?

And I think that’s a helpful kind of journey for every organization. You can think about that  at the organizational level. You can think about that at a team level. You can think about that. At an individual level.

Tesse: 00:31:48 Beautife. Paula, what are your thoughts. I’m giving this to you.  I’m touched you. You go for it while I provide my I dry the tears of inspiration.

Paula: 00:31:58 You can see I’m shaking my head. There’s been so much wisdom in what you’ve said. Andy. It’s like you’re older than you really are. And one of the things that really stuck with me was . You talked about becoming, working on things that will make you become the person that you really ought to be.

And  when we talked about COVID and any positives you’ve seen , that has come out of COVID you talked about being proactive and changing the conversation within the organizations.  And So it’s more like a holistic conversion for everybody, the company and the employees, and even the the CEOs and Chief Executives such in redefining the way things were done in the past.

And that made me start thinking. Because I read through your bio and I saw that when you were at Clemson…

Andy Martin: 00:32:59 not to be confused with UFC,

Paula: 00:33:03 if you could redo your. Invention album, you help develop Michellin’s, first skateboard wheel in partnership with Sector Nine.

Andy Martin: 00:33:13 Um…yeah.

Paula: 00:33:13 Now that you know what you know

Tesse: 00:33:15 Impressive

how would

Paula: 00:33:18 you do that differently?

Andy Martin: 00:33:26 If I could do one thing differently during that time, I would have  done a better job of capturing the journey along the way so, that I could use those findings in terms of what went well, what didn’t go well all the different things that we learned. So that I could be able to use that now, or it could be able to draw upon that toolkit now.

Where I think in the moment, you’re just in it. You’re just  going fast and you’re in the work and I didn’t take as much time as I should have to pause. Reflect on what I’m learning in this time  so that I could draw upon it later.  That’s the biggest thing that stands out to me because there were so many tools that we designed.

There were so many pieces of work that we did that because of the organization that I used at that time, it’s lost.  And so being able to capture that stuff, whether it’s a tool, whether it’s a methodology or a way of thinking,  I wish I could have packaged that in a way stored it away for knowing that I was going to draw upon that again at some later date.

That was the biggest thing I would say.

Paula: 00:34:56 And so with that said, do you have any recent innovations that we need to know about?

Tesse: 00:35:05 Absolutely, we’reall ears.

Andy Martin: 00:35:07 No  not any breakthrough innovations in the current pipeline.  We’re just doing a lot of really good work right now with Franklin Covey helping organizations adapt. Helping them build the skills and capabilities needed for the future of their organization. Helping them be more intentional and deliberate about building a winning culture that is sustainable for the future of their organization.

And there’s a lot of innovation coming out of, the work that we do for other clients.

Tesse: 00:35:53 It’s so inspiring. Actually, I know that you are in a senior position, now, et cetera, but you do fall into what I think of the “Generation Hear Now” category .And it’s absolutely brilliant. It’s you’re an inspiration to younger people. People who think, Oh, I can’t do this. You have shown that they can do it.

I have a question just to sum up this part we’re going to have a break and come back. But  this is just by way of summary of all the things. Cause it’s been so rich, this has been amazingly rich and you can see that both of us  are really moved by what you’re saying in a good way.

Of course. Our listeners can learn from your experiences.  ? What would you like them to take away?

Andy Martin: 00:36:37 There’s two things that come to mind and COVID has really teased this out for me and helped me recognize the importance of this. One is to just spend a few hours thinking about what really matters most in your life.

I don’t want to put a specific amount of time on it because it’s different for everybody.  Some leaders that I know they’ll take four hours out every quarter and do this. And then they build in an hour a wee for this. And to really just think about what truly matters in my life to me?  And what do I want my legacy to be? What do I want my contribution to be? And it’s hard to figure out. I think I’m still in that process for myself in that journey. And then the second thing would be looking at our lives and thinking about does the way that I’m showing up now.

The way that I’m spending my time, my money, my energy, my thought life does that actually reflect what’s most important to me? Now are those two things in alignment or is there a lack of alignment in those things? And I think that’s all I would say.

Tesse: 00:38:02 That’s actually beautiful that we’re in alignment? What’s the most importan?, How should I spend my time? These are reflective questions and there are ways of actually enriching our lives, our work, our friends, our relationships. That’s brilliant.

And I don’t want to be greedy because you’ve given so much, but this is a question we ask all, and it’s  whether somebody can offer for people listening to this podcast a gift or something, I have to confess, I love freebies, and so do the people listening in as well. But. Yeah. Andy Iknow you’ve given so much. Can I be an Oliver Twist and say, anything more?

Andy Martin: 00:38:49 Sure there’s two things and I’d be happy to help. Franklin Covey has developed some tool kits that are really helpful for leaders having certain conversations around engaging and motivating their teams.  We have one around achieving extraordinary productivity in uncertain times; around advancing sales opportunities in difficult times, if you’re a sales leader and so these are things that you can run your teams through and facilitate conversations around.

Anyone that would like to connect with me on LinkedIn, you can find me on LinkedIn at Andy Martin is my name. My email is You can reach out to me and I’d be happy to connect you with some of those things. And we do have a few complimentary events coming up live online in a virtual format.

One is around everyone deserves a great manager. So it’s how do you build Effective first level leaders in your organization. We have those running through December and in January, and we’ll be having some additional events coming out in January, February around a best-selling book, The Four Disciplines of Execution and how to help an executive drive a strategy or a key objective through the organization. And that requires a lot of people to do something different or more consistent. And I’d be happy to, get anybody plugged into one of those. If it’d be helpful.

Paula: 00:40:30 Thank you, Andy. This is amazing.  I know a lot of people are going to really take you up on that opportunity .

Thank you, Andy. I truly do appreciate your taking time out to be with us on Tesse Talks. Make sure you head over to Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you listen to podcasts and click subscribe. If you like what you’re hearing please, write a raving review, And if you have questions or. topics  you want us to cover related to leadership and governance? Send us a note. Remember it can be personal as well as professional. And for those of you who are listening, who would love to be a guest on Tesse Talks, please head over to to apply.