00:00:00 Paula: Welcome everyone, to Future Focus, Well-being and Resilience, where we focus on journeys that keep us well and support our resilience. No two journeys are the same, and we recognise that there are some habits, practices, and lessons that can nurture us and help us flourish and strive. We love to capture and share these pearls of insight and wisdom with you. So, today we have a very special guest. Her name is Carol Weisman. But before she joins us, I’ll tell you about her. Carol Weisman founded Board Builders, an international consultant firm focused on fundraising, philanthropy, and governance in 1994. She is the author of 11 books. But in 2020, her husband Frank Robbins was diagnosed with Lewy body dementia, Parkinson’s disease, and spinal stenosis.
00:01:06 Paula: Carol had to take a pause on her consultant and speaking business to care for him, and Frank, unfortunately, or sadly enough, passed away in January of 2025. Carol is now returning to international work, grateful for the time she spent with Frank, while looking forward to connecting with the world once again. So today our topic is Life After Lost, and I want to now say Welcome to Future Focus, Carol, thank you for joining us today.
00:01:42 Carol: Great to be here. Thank you.
00:01:44 Tesse: Yeah Carol, I’m so pleased that you can join us. You’re my favourite person and I love you to bits, and I know the last few years have been pretty hard, ups and downs. How are you dealing with your grief, Carol?
00:01:59 Carol: I think, unlike cancer with Lewy body dementia, I started grieving the day that he was diagnosed. Because there was no medication. I looked into whether there was any studies in the United States, even outside the United States. I have a friend who is a neurologist in Australia who’s retired, and he said, my wife is having surgery on her foot, and I’m going to be at home. Would you like me to research whether there are any studies going on? And there was nothing. And so, I knew there was no hope. And that’s very different from cancer when you’re going up and down or a car accident, where all of a sudden somebody’s gone and you just can’t even imagine it. Rather than the path that we were on, where he died a little bit every day.
00:02:49 Carol: So, it’s quite different. Mourning someone, morning someone. I was a pediatric oncology social worker in the seventies. And I remember a mother saying to me. I never thought I’d pray for my son to die. And he was about five foot eight, and he was down to sixty-five pounds, and he was in terrible pain. And so, it’s not that prayer goes, it’s that it changes. So, at his memorial service, at his funeral, people were remembering him so fondly. He was sixteen, and it was a fond remembrance as opposed to another memorial that I went to for a young man, same age 16. Who had died in a motorcycle accident and people were just stunned and sobbing, because it was just such a punch in the gut. And this was such a downward spiral, which is quite different. Every death is a different process.
00:03:47 Tesse: Absolutely!
00:03:49 Carol: But it’s amazing the things you miss when you’re a full-time caregiver. I only had help twelve hours a week, which is not very much. And it’s quite expensive too, at least in the United States. It’s expensive to get old and get sick, you know? And so, we have a service where you can have food delivered and rather than go to the grocery store. And now I can go to the grocery store, and that doesn’t sound like a big deal. But I get to squeeze the melons, not somebody else, and I get to pick out the lettuce, and just those small things. If I were to go to the grocery store, there was a minimum of four hours for the nurse and it was $200. Yeah. Someone said to me, oh, I said, Instacart’s coming, which is the delivery service, and she said, oh, I prefer to go by myself. And I thought I do too, but not for $200. So, I’m enjoying some very odd little things like going to the grocery store.
00:04:49 Tesse: You know, it’s really interesting that those little thing are gifts and you know, and I’m wondering what else are you finding as you’re connecting back with the world?
00:04:59 Carol: Well, this is the craziest thing that I’m doing. It’s been six months and I started internet dating. Oh my goodness. After 48 years of marriage. And if your listeners don’t know this, I have to say, I was shocked to find out, and I don’t know why I was shocked, but it turns out men lie. So, I’ve only gone on two dates. One said he was 70, he was 80, I’m 76. And the other guy said he was 74 and he was 84. So that was my only two dates. And then one guy. These guys, I don’t know what the heck they’re thinking. But, one of the guys said, you know, he gave me his real name and everything, and I looked him up and his wife was posting,
00:05:53 Carol: Wow!
00:05:54 Paula: My word!
00:05:55 Tesse: Wow!
00:05:56 Carol: Yes. I guess he didn’t think I had a computer. Gimme a break! And so, I looked him up and I emailed him back and I said, are you married? And he said, I’m sorry, I won’t contact you again. And I thought, good idea!
00:06:12 Paula: Oh my word!
00:06:13 Carol: And then, another guy said he was a pediatric orthopaedic surgeon in Topeka, Kansas. I live in St. Louis, Missouri, in the Midwest. And I called a friend of mine who was a doctor in Topeka, and I said, do you know this guy? And he looked him up. He said, I’ve never heard of him, but let me look him up. And then my friend went one step further and went to the state medical board. This guy wasn’t a doctor at all.
00:06:38 Tesse: Oh, wow!
00:06:38 Paula: My word!
00:06:39 Carol: So, but I have so many friends. One of my dearest friends who passed two weeks ago, I wrote his eHarmony ad when he was 79. And he remarried at 80. And they had four wonderful years together. The fifth year was horrible because she had very aggressive cancer, and she had a stem cell transplant that didn’t work. But those first four years were glorious. And so, I have a lot of friends who have done better than I have. But dating at 76 is really bizarre.
00:07:15 Tesse: It’s early days, Carol. Early days.
00:07:18 Carol: One of my friends who’s also she lost her husband in February and she just started out. They were together only five years. Her previous husband had also died, so she had gone through a second loss to cancer. Which I don’t know how she went through that, but so she said, I have a date this weekend. And I said, tell me about him. She said. He’s says he is 5’7, so I think he’s 5’5. And I called her the next day and I said 5’7 or 5’5? And she said, oh, with the cane he was more like 5’3. I mean, you can’t make this stuff up!
00:07:58 Tesse: Oh my goodness, I’m crying!
00:08:01 Carol: Well, and then some people said, you know, you shouldn’t do anything for a year. Well, at 76, I don’t know how many years I have. And I’ve been mourning literally for four and a half years. And I love being married, and I love being married to Frank. And I don’t particularly care whether I have a piece of paper or not at this point. I don’t mind sharing with your audience that I’m not having any more children.
00:08:26 Paula: Alright!
00:08:27 Carol: So, marriage is not terribly important, so the children have a last name. But that’s been an interesting process. But what’s helped me the most is I play bridge once a week at the St. Louis Women’s Club, and there are 12 of us, nine widows. And they’ve been so supportive, and some have gone on to marry or have boyfriends, and some have said, been there, done that! It’s not gonna get any better. I married the love of my life, and I don’t want it again. And other ones said he was a real jerk, and I don’t wanna deal with that again. So, we come from all different points of view. But they’ve been incredibly supportive, so that’s been really helpful, reentering the world.
00:09:12 Tesse: Dating!
00:09:14 Paula: Internet did, and I love it. At 76, you are a scream!
00:09:18 Tesse: She amazing! And Carol has always been a trailblazer since I’ve known her, since I’ve known you Carol, you’re a trailblazer, you know?
00:09:27 Carol: Well, one of my neighbours who lives upstairs said, I’d really like to introduce you to this guy. And I happened to meet him, and he was going through a divorce. He just finished his divorce, which is just very different from a death. It’s the death of a dream. And so, I said to him, I have a lot of friends. What are you looking for? He’s 79, he said, I’m looking for someone who’s around 50 and slender.
00:09:50 Paula: Wow. Be specific.
00:09:52 Carol: I’m 76 and I am not slender. So, I said, are you thinking of dating or adopting? Which he didn’t appreciate. But, but it’s 79, that’s 29 years! The good news is he’s rich, so he’ll find somebody.
00:10:11 Tesse & Paula: Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh yes. Oh yes.
00:10:17 Paula: Carol, I really love you.
00:10:19 Tesse: Carol is hilarious. Carol, you’re so funny.
00:10:23 Carol: No, I mean, this is my world.
00:10:25 Paula: It is your world.
00:10:26 Carol: And I decided to write a book about it.
00:10:28 Paula: Oh, yes. Tell us about that.
00:10:30 Carol: Well, in 2013, I started to write this book, and my husband was very upset by the title. And the title is F**k ‘Em and Feed ‘Em: A Woman’s Guide to Love and Marriage. And he said, I don’t mind if you write the book, just change the title. And I said, I won’t publish it in your lifetime. So, I hauled out the manuscript and went back writing it. So, I’m doing the interviews right now, and it’s really about what women need to be happy. And sometimes it’s not a man. Sometimes it’s a hobby, sometimes it’s work, sometimes it’s a passion to do good. Sometimes it’s ceramics. It can be all kinds of things. But it doesn’t necessarily mean marriage or partnership. And some people are quite happily married or have partners that are not monogamous. That’s not for me, but it is for some people. So, it’s really about what it takes to be happy. And the reason I came up with this horrific title is that, when my son was getting married 15 years, no, 18 years ago now. My future daughter-in-law said to me, my parents are divorced and you and Frank are happy.
00:11:45 Carol: What’s the secret to a happy marriage? And I said, f**k him and feed him. And if the truth be told, they’ll get their own food. And she just. Her jaw dropped. I’ve never seen anybody’s jaw actually drop, but she, her mouth fell open. And she said she told a bunch of her friends about this and they said she should write a book. And I decided I’d write that book. But what’s shocked me the most about writing this book is, I play bridge with a former debutante who’s in her eighties. She’s very proper. She could be a member of your royal family if she had been born in your country. She’s very elegant and very proper. And so I said to these three women who are all in their 80’s, one was 97. I call it Old Lady Bridge with Play Bridge. I said, I wanna show you the cover of this book, and I wanna know if you find it offensive. And this very proper debutante took one look at it and she said, I would have this on my coffee table.
00:12:51 Tesse: Wow! Shocked. Wow!
00:12:55 Carol: She was very much like a very dear friend of Tesse and mine. Oh, named Lady Winifred Tumim.
00:13:01 Tesse: Oh yes.
00:13:02 Carol & Tesse: Who we loved, loved. No, we love her. Yes. We miss her so much. Yes.
00:13:07 Carol: But I think Winifred would have this book on her coffee table as well.
00:13:10 Tesse: Oh, she would do. She would do.
00:13:13 Carol: So, you know, I’m interviewing people about why they got married, why things worked, why things didn’t work. And then I’m looking at a lot of statistics. Do married women live longer? Not much. Do married men live longer? They live a lot longer. So just to really. I’ve got the first 60 pages in an outline done, so I have a lot more work to do, either.
00:13:39 Tesse: You know, Carol what I love about you, Paula and I, people can’t tell, but we are smiling so much. You brought a lightness to this and, actually, reality as well. And it’s a kind of, this is a podcast about wellbeing and resilience. What are your top tips for people to be well, to stay well?
00:13:58 Carol: Well, I think for me, I think the biggest problem I hear from my friends, and I think this is a very serious problem, is loneliness. Especially if you were connected to a lot of people because of your spouse or your work. And if you had to stop working, either because of retirement or because of a loss, and your whole focus socially was the people in the office, it’s very difficult and people are very lonely. I had a friend who lived in my building who was 92. And she died, since Frank’s death in January I’ve lost five friends. It’s been a horrific year. And she just said until she met me, I met her in the elevator. And I said, are you Ann Sawyer? And she said, yes. And I said, I’ve heard delightful things about you. And she said, I can’t imagine. I just fell in love with her. She was very controversial and we became friends. And she said she had moved to St. Louis from Greenwich, Connecticut to be near her daughter. But her daughter wasn’t there 50 or 60 hours a week, she was there twice a week. And so, especially being in a new place, loneliness is a real challenge. And it wasn’t so much for me because I live in the same place. I live two blocks from where I was born. I went away to undergraduate, graduate school in St. Louis. But there are a lot of places to go to meet people and you have to be patient.
00:15:29 Carol: It depends on what your interests are. Some of my friends have joined Bridge groups. I play pickleball twice a week; I love pickleball. Has it the UK?
00:15:38 Tesse: It has now, yeah. Oh, it’s, it has now eventually.
00:15:43 Carol: I love pickleball, and I started playing before Frank died. I got out 12 hours a week, so I played pickleball twice a week for two hours. And my whole pickleball group came to his memorial service. They were so lovely. And they were so sweet. And one time I was leaving and one of the guys said, where are you off to? And I said, I’m going to pick up Frank’s ashes. And he said, do you want me to come with you? And I thought that was so kind. And this is someone I hadn’t known for a long time. I’d known him for about a year.
00:16:18 Tesse & Paula: Yeah. Oh wow.
00:16:18 Carol: But he was so dear. And then, oh, this was a mess. So then, I thought I didn’t need him, and I went and I sat in the car and cried, when I got to the car with his ashes. And then I got back to my building. And I live in a high-rise, and I had his ashes in a basket. And this woman said, oh, you’ve been shopping? And I said, no, these are Frank’s ashes. My husband had been in the army, so they give you an American flag. So, I had Frank in an American flag, and then I just started crying. So, this poor woman is in the elevator with me. But this issue of loneliness when you’re consumed with something, twenty-four hours a day, for year in, year out. And your whole focus is on someone else, to start to refocus, pick up old friendships, or start new ones, can be very difficult. I’m not shy, and that makes a big difference. But for people who are shy and more introspective, it takes a while. And going to a book group. We have them all over town, various libraries and all kinds of groups, and at bookstores. I think that’s a great way to connect and it’s a great way to connect with people who have similar interests. So, my interest I love the old British novelists like Agatha Christie and Ruth Rendell and that whole group. So, I seem to like violence and murder, but only as a hobby, only as a hobby…
00:17:58 Paula: Oh my gosh.
00:17:59 Carol: But some people, like one of my friends, goes to a fantasy book club, and another one likes Korean. I think it’s called Manga.
00:18:06 Paula: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Are you into that?
00:18:10 Tesse: Carol, I visited Paula a couple of years ago. I was introduced to those Korean Soaps. Yeah, love them! Love them!
00:18:17 Carol: And so, she belongs to a club. And then what she did, and this is what really makes the difference. She went one step further. She loves to cook, and so she said, I’ll make a Korean dinner. And this was when the library was going to be closed for some renovations, for a couple weeks. And she said, come to my house and we’ll have our regular meeting and I’ll make a Korean dinner for everybody, and there were 12 people. And that’s when it really, it kind of first opened and all of a sudden these friendships and talking about, oh, how did you get involved in this, and all that sort of thing. And they, she really started to recover at that point. I mean, it’s a process. It’s not an event. So, you don’t all of a sudden wake up, go to a, some kind of meeting and you’re okay.
00:19:07 Paula: So true.
00:19:08 Carol: Everybody mourns differently. So true. But she’s…
00:19:12 Tesse: Go on, Carol.
00:19:13 Carol: Oh, she just said that dinner. She said it was one of the most brilliant things she did. And it was one of the most, most grateful groups. On the other hand, I had another friend who played tennis. And he played with a very established group, and they would have parties and not invite him, and he would be very hurt.
00:19:30 Paula: Oh yes!
00:19:31 Paula: And I said, yeah! And I said, these guys have been playing together for how long? 20 years? 10 years? He said 40 years. 50 years.
00:19:39 Tesse: Wow!
00:19:40 Carol: So, they’ve been playing together for years. And I said, so they’re not inviting you? And he said, yes, and I’m a human being. I should be invited. I said, what have you invited them to?
00:19:50 Tesse: Hmm. Good question.
00:19:53 Carol: And he said, well, I don’t cook. And I said, well, you can go to the grocery store and buy prepared foods, or watch a soccer match or whatever. But you need to reach out because they’re already locked in. And he felt he was totally locked out. And I said, you can do one of two things. If you like these guys and you wanna be their friend, invite them over. Otherwise, find another tennis group.
00:20:16 Paula: Agreed.
00:20:17 Carol: That’s not so closed off.
00:20:19 Paula: Agreed.
00:20:19 Carol: But loneliness can be really difficult. I’ve heard from a lot of my friends, and this is certainly true of me. Sleeping was very difficult. For the last two years of Frank’s life, I got up every single night about two o’clock in the morning to take him to the bathroom and to change him and to take care of him, to give him some pain meds if he needed it. And so, I hadn’t slept through the night in over two years, which is exhausting. And I couldn’t take naps because I couldn’t go to another room. So, sometimes I would doze off while he watched Murder She Wrote, and I would doze a little bit, but I really didn’t sleep. So, it’s hard to get used to sleeping with someone, and it’s hard to get used to sleeping without them. So, getting enough rest and switching your schedule those are hard things to adapt to.
00:21:09 Paula: So, Carol, I have a question for you. Listening to you, initially I wanted to say, how is life treating you? But no, I can see you are treating life, right? You are treating life. What would you say people should, in, I mean, in similar conditions to you, or similar circumstances to you, not conditions. Excuse that word. What should they avoid?
00:21:32 Carol: I think we all have an Achilles heel. For me, it’s carbohydrates. For another friend of mine, it was wine and this friend of mine lost his wife a year before I lost Frank. And you can get into some very bad habits. And I talked to him about the recovery, and he wrote a brilliant book called Sim One by Tom Ahern, A-H-E-R-N. It’s a brilliant book about the last year of his wife’s life, and he found himself drinking too much. And so, we talked to each other and I said, I’ve stopped with all the heavy carbohydrates and I’ve lost 43 pounds.
00:22:14 Paula: Wow. Impressive.
00:22:16 Carol: Well, I’m not there yet, so I’ve got some more to go. But I gained a lot of weight and he stopped drinking. And so, you can get into some really bad habits when you feel like you’re somewhat oppressed and bored and, and they’re not healthy. Then you have to start picking up where you left off, realizing you don’t have the same body you had four or five years ago, depending on how long your journey’s been. And to slowly break those habits and start exercising and living a healthy life again. So that has not been easy.
00:22:56 Paula: Yes, yes. Yes. Because you know, I’m also widow and I know 00:23:00 we talk sometimes a lot things we should do. But sometimes people didn’t say what you should avoid. I mean, like for some people it’s like, alright, other people pass in their life and they’re like. They’ve gone to the funeral, and they realize that’s something I need to avoid because it’s triggering. You know? Or going back to the same, you know, living in the same house. Some people can do it. I think you have, I had to move. So, you know, and some other people have asked me, so what are some things that you would say, I know what I should do, but what shouldn’t I do? Because it’s helpful. So, thank you for answering that.
00:23:35 Tesse: Yeah. You know, and Carol, who I’ve known forever and love so much. Carol, you give such practical advice, very practical, very sound, very humorous, very liberating. What you said, these kind of tips are very, very useful tips. Is there any chance that you might have a little book? With the top tips of life and living, because what you’ve said really makes such a difference to the quality of people’s lives.
00:24:08 Carol: Yeah. I have to get through this next book and then I’ll see. I’ll see about whether I wanna start writing a new book at 79 or 80. I don’t know. I wrote two books about Frank for our grandsons. While he was ill. And I think it was really for me, not my grandsons, they live in another state. We live in the Midwest. They live outside of Boston. And I started to forget who he was. I couldn’t remember, what he was like when he knew who I was. And so, I wrote two picture books. They’re each about 170 pages. One was from his birth up until his diagnosis, and the other was from his diagnosis to his death. And I wanted our grandchildren to know who this man was. And we also lived, it just doesn’t get any worse. It was during COVID as well. The first two years were COVID. It wasn’t that fun. Not so I couldn’t remember who he was, and that really helped me a lot, so that my grandsons would know who their grandfather was. And for some people, it’s journaling. There’s a lot of things you can do other than carbohydrates and alcohol, apparently.
00:25:22 Paula & Tesse: You can do a podcast. Yeah, a podcast can do a podcast.
00:25:29Carol: For some it’s, it’s meditation or daily prayer. One of my friends who’s Catholic became a daily celebrant, and mass brings her peace. I went back to tap dancing, and I don’t like it because I’ve got an ingrown toenail. And it’s not as fun as it used to be. And so, I think I’m gonna drop that. I tried improv, I didn’t like that. So, I’m going to a workshop on standup comedy. So, you have to kind of try different things and see what works for you. And don’t be afraid to try something new.
00:26:00 Paula: Because you know, you said something that’s very valid, which is, at this side of 50, we don’t know how many years we have left. So do the things that give you joy. And no is a complete sentence. I don’t like doing this, so I’m not gonna do it anymore. Or, nope. You can invite me to this, but I’m not going because I don’t think it’s something I’m gonna do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love it!
00:26:26 Carol: But also do the things. Don’t put anything off. If you’ve always wanted to go gorilla trekking in Rwanda, do it today. Make your plans.
00:26:37 Paula: I’ll go to the, you know, is it SpaceX that they’re going now? Try that if you’re brave enough.
00:26:43 Carol: And rich enough!
00:26:44 Paula: And rich enough too.
00:26:46 Tesse: You know Paula, I tell you that Carol is a hoot, always. Always. Carol you’re like wine, you mature.
00:26:53 Carol: I turn to vinegar!
00:26:55 Tesse: Brilliance! No, no. You know the best wine that is you, you just get better and better with life. Thank you so much.
00:27:04 Paula & Tesse: I agree. Yeah. You agree? I agree. I agree.
00:27:06 Carol: Well, thank you for this time with you two. I’ve really, as always, loved it. And I can’t wait to get back to London. That’s one of the things I’ve put on just travel.
00:27:14 Tesse: I’m counting it. I can’t wait to give you a hug, Carol. I can’t wait.
00:27:19 Carol: I look forward to it. Thank you both so much.
Outro:
00:27:23 Paula: Sure. And to our amazing listening audience, thank you for always tuning in, for being here with us, for following us. We ask for those of you who don’t follow us, to head over to wherever you get your podcast, whether Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and click subscribe so you know when a new podcast lands or drops. And if you love what you just heard. We ask that you write just a raving review, just not just any regular review, a raving review. And if you’ve got questions or topics, you’d like us to cover, we ask that you reach out to us on our website, which is www.tesseakpeki.com/tessetalks/ to apply because Future Focus right now is being housed on TesseTesse. But very soon we’ll be able to encourage you to reach out to us on our new upcoming website and our new podcast. So, thank you so much. So much, so much, Carol, for talking about life after loss and making us smile.
00:28:32 Tesse: Yeah, I haven’t smiled so much. I haven’t smiled so much about that, but Carol is always a joy.
00:28:39 Carol: Thank you so much for sharing, letting me share with you.
00:28:43 Paula: Absolutely.