Mental Wellbeing for Men

0:00:00 Paula: Welcome to TesseTalks with your host, Tesse Akpeki and co-host me Paula Okonneh, where we share with you top leadership and management strategies. This continues to be a journey of discovery where we learn that leadership is personal and professional. And we hope you, our viewers, our listeners, will walk with us in this adventure. Today our guest is Joel White and I’ll tell you a bit about him. 

0:00:29 Paula: Joel is a rewire coach for men dedicated to helping high achieving men break free from limiting narratives in work, relationships and personal fulfillment. Recognizing the transformative power of the Reset It program, Joel evolved into Rewired for Men. Offering a revolutionary approach to help men rewire limited beliefs and unlock their true potential. With deep expertise and a touch of humor, he creates spaces where men can reclaim control, they can rediscover purpose and best of all they can thrive. Welcome Joel to TesseTalks. Our theme today is mental health and wellbeing for men.

0:01:26 Joel: Yeah, I really appreciate your welcome Paula. An absolute honor and a pleasure to join on you two, so I was really close to my heart and I really appreciate the introduction. It was beautiful. Thank you very much. 

0:01:36 Paula: Thank you.

0:01:38 Tesse: Hi Joe. Look, I’m too excited for my own good. You come saying yes. So, but I’m just excited to hear more about your empowering men through your Rewired for Men initiative. This is so unusual. Tell us more. You are curious.

0:01:52 Joel: Yeah, absolutely. It was a beautiful introduction there from Paula. I guess starting where we are now and working backwards, there’s many men out there in the world in business where they find themselves in a place where they feel unable, unwilling and not really sure where to turn to get help and support. And we have been a little talk before we have started recording, that there are some general stereotypes around men that men don’t talk and stiff up lip and all the rest of it. And a lot of that is down to the unconscious beliefs that men pick up and say put on men from very young age. But men in general, we are sort of told very young age to not cry, not show emotion, you’re going to be the man of the house. Your daddy’s little boy’s going to go and do A, B and C.

0:02:44 Joel: And a lot of men so literal from the age of five to seven, they start wearing a mask. We’ve become very good at it that we even fool ourselves from that degree. And that can be very, very difficult for men to navigate an ever changing world. And it is changing more and more for how men try and navigate such a world from that degree where I’m based in the UK I’m getting the pictures the same in a lot of countries. So, only evidence to look at the statistics of men taking their own life because whatever they are officially they’re not a true picture because what can happen for a lot of men, it goes down from a coroner, is death by misadventure. So, it doesn’t necessarily count towards the real total, if that makes sense.

0:03:28 Joel: So if anything, it’s a very clear passion of mine to make a difference to people’s lives. Empowering them to do that so they can then do the same for others. That’s very much at the forefront of rewire for men and why I do what I do, but also general education of society. For men, men do talk if you’re able to create the space where they feel safe to open up and be vulnerable. And by the way, vulnerable is one of the greatest strengths a man can be. It’s not a weakness. It’s incredible the depths what men will go through to support each other. We are natural problem solvers. That’s a gift and a curse. But we are natural problem solvers. And you either get a group of men in a room who are willing to be open and vulnerable. It’s incredible to see the depth, what men will go to the vulnerability and then more importantly the support and accountability and responsibility that all gets played in the room and finding solutions to each of those problems because a lot of men get trapped in the idea, it only happens to me. But when you put a man in that room and they share something and the other men are aware of that, you can feel a change. And the only way I can put it and that for me, you can’t put a price on that. You can’t put a figure on that. And that’s really is a massive drive for me about why I do what I do, working with men and not empowering men.

0:04:50 Paula: I love that. Joel, you know something that you said that from the age of, did you say three or seven?

0:04:59 Joel: Five. Five to seven,

0:05:01 Paula: Five to seven boys have it ingrained in them that they’ve got to be strong, they’ve got to be the man of the house, even if they don’t feel it, but they’ve got to be it. 

0:05:13 Joel: Absolutely.

0:05:14 Paula: But could you give me a little of us because this is a podcast that so many men and women and mothers of sons, wives too should hear this. Can you go into a little bit of depth about the type of work that you’re undertaking that is helping to shift these unhelpful narratives?

0:05:32 Joel: Yeah, very much so, Paula. You know for me, I work predominantly with men as you said to rewire those unconscious beliefs that hold them back. And they’re usually, like you were saying, their forms from a very young age of five, seven years old. A lot of men learn more actually through not what they hear, but through what they see. We learn a lot from modeling. And so boys will pick things up that perhaps doesn’t belong to them, but they take it on board, they internalize it and they form the unconscious beliefs. And what happens is as the boy grows up into a man, it shapes their reality and that holds them back around their unconscious beliefs in certain areas of life. I. e. money work relationships, if you speak to most men or hear men I can bet at bottom dollar there’s concerns coming out in those three main areas of their lives that are all strongly influenced by those unconscious beliefs. And they usually hold them man back.

0:06:29 Joel: So, the first point of what I do when I work with men is actually make them aware. Make them aware of their own unconscious beliefs and the power that they can have of such small sentences from when they were 5, 7-year-old. Like you will be the man of the house, you will be the breadwinner to, no one loves me, no one likes me, I’m not safe, I won’t be successful. They sound everyday sentences, rolling them off the tongue. But when they are blueprinted into your head from such a young age, it’s imaginable to see how that then influences a man and the decisions they make in their life growing up. So once a man is aware of those unconscious beliefs, I also then move into a point of what I call psych education. Men are very much focused on logic and reason, logic, reason, reflection. And for a lot of men they might go and see the doctor or nurse or whatever and they’re told, oh right, you’re depressed or you’re traumatized or you’re anxious. Or very rarely does anybody sit down with man and go, do you actually understand what that means? Do you understand what the cause of that is? That a lot of those are sick collections of symptoms with names. Then they actually ask you, what your opinion is of this. That’s the psych education piece.

0:07:45 Joel: And that really lands for a man and then the final stage of what I do when I work with these men is I empower them with a very simple technique to get to the root cause of these unconscious beliefs without the need of the emotional story in 30 days or less. And in doing that, it’s a very effective moving a man into a place where they’re no longer influenced by these unhelpful and unconscious beliefs. They’re no longer impacted by the stories, unhelpful stories of other people. They’re able to regulate their emotions better, they’re able to be more creative, they’re able to go into that built in system I thought out before about a logic reason and reflection to think things through properly before making decisions. And that has been clearly demonstrated with the feedback from the men that I’ve worked with.

0:08:35 Tesse: That is awesome. It really is. I’m listening to you and the question that is coming into my mind is if you can share an example of where you’ve been able to achieve the emotional balance and also the balance in insight and direction. You know those sides of the brain, the ones that, the emotions, the regulation, the nervous system.

0:08:58 Joel: Yes.

0:08:59 Tesse: And the direction because this is really rich stuff Joel. Really impressive.

0:09:05 Joel: Yeah, absolute Tesse. A lot of men when they have influence in those unconscious beliefs at a young age, they will tend to generally go either what I call to the left or to the right. So, they tend to go to the right hand side. What that is important to recognize, that’s almost like comfort zone cage. So you imagine a man in a cage, or an animal in a cage, they see alright, they feel locked in, they feel down, they might feel safe to start off with, but the bars are still there. And eventually if the man stays in that cage, he starts to do things like the need to please, the need to get other people to like them, blah blah blah. Over time the cage might get a bit bigger but we’re still in the cage. And even if you open the door to the cage, the man still stays in the cage. So it’s very much that that can come around of being the depression being, I don’t matter anymore being the suicidal thoughts because of the nature of that scenario.

0:09:58 Joel: If you go to the left hand side, you’ve almost got what I would term the running machine of success. So, imagine a man in a suit on a running machine and they step on it and they turn it fast and they start to put it uphill and there’s a sign in front of them that says, I will be successful when, and so they reach the first target or distance, whatever it’s they’re aiming for and they cross it off and then they write something else on and then they make it faster and then they turn it more uphill. So you can imagine that journey for that type of man, where they start off with this, I’ve got to prove myself the very toxic masculinity that could come out, the very aggressive nature of what can come out in somewhere. But with time agitation kicks in because they can’t keep up on the machine, it’s too much for them to deal with. The anxiousness starts to come in and eventually they burn out any fall off it.

0:10:48 Joel: Generally men will find themselves in one camp or the other. And if anything what I do with those men is I take them out the cage off the running machine to go into that place of being able to walk, being able to hold the head high and be okay to be okay and okay not to be okay. And asking for examples very much I’ve worked with men who have been in both places. One example came up for me recently where I’ve worked with mom where he very much was on running machine of success. He realized things weren’t great in his life. He did an insurance, it was an incredibly well swapped a new company and the company was awful. And he was only there about five to six months. It broke the camel’s back and he had a full on nervous breakdown and was sectioned. And that is the ultimate, ultimate of falling off the running machine from that degree. And I’ve been working with this gentleman doing what I do to see the incredible progression in such a short period of time of realizing that he does matter and that he can get back into work and it’s okay to rest. And he doesn’t have to dive back on that running machine and he can be okay with where he is at, be able to focus on the prices and in his life, that’s an example.

0:12:04 Joel: And there’ve been obviously worked with men who have been in the other camp. I recently, I worked with a man who on the outside will seem very successful. He’s been a business owner of various businesses, but he was absolutely stuck in imposter syndrome despite having a multimillion dollar business. He just was an absolute imposter to himself. And you would never guess that this is a guy who’s out there, working with teams, all this stuff. But going home for a lot of men is a different story when people ain’t watching. So, he is worked with him to bring him into a place that he is good enough and it does matter, that he is worth it. And to see that change in him as well, is he men putting themselves into places where they got healthy unconscious beliefs. It’s no longer rule them anymore.

0:12:51 Paula: You know what Joel? You’re saying things that I don’t think many people are aware of. And because Tesse and I are women, Tesse, excuse me, if I’m kind of adding you to my box, which is the box of being there and thinking, men are strong, men are tough, men have the solution, men always feel good enough because that’s the narrative that most of us have been told. And the thing is as women we tend to feel okay, they are at the top and we’re trying to just get there. So, to hear that men also feel some of the things that we feel but we talk about ours, I think it’s mind boggling in a way it’s an eyeopener. And also makes me again realize that we are all human, so whether we men or we are women, we all are human and we have the same emotion, but it’s just how it’s addressed that can make a difference.

0:13:51 Joel: Absolutely. And like I saying about before with men, men do experience a lot of things women do. We just hide it better because of how the influence of being when we’re younger. And that’s a gift and a curse in regards to that degree. I mentioned before, society’s completely loony isn’t in the UK or alongside the equality and men and women being equal and it’s just not possible. It’s a myth. Men and women are different. What it’s actually about, it’s men and women [inaudible 0:14:18 and respecting each of us differences and working together. Not saying I’m equal because it’s not impossible, but we’re not. And I think when you’ve got two people who respect each other, you bring the best out of each other, man and a woman together. And that’s what’s really, really I important. 

0:14:37 Joel: And again, you mentioned a bit there, men are very much around logic, reason, and reflection for women. It’s very much around emotional intelligence, emotional intuitiveness, a peer group to go and sass ideas out, whatever it is. And when you’ve got a man and a woman in a healthy place, it works blissfully well. When you don’t, things don’t work out when don’t work out so well. A man will try and fix a woman’s problem when the woman just wants the man to sit down and listen. Or a man’s got a problem or a woman wants to come in and go, have you done this or have you done that? And a man is just quiet, well I ain’t speaking anymore and shuts down. And again, it’s quite interesting and throwing something in.  there’s an incredible sketch on YouTube and I always make reference to this. It’s been around since the dawn of time it’s called, it’s not about the nail in the head. And it really, really gets down to the difference between the two men with it and literally what can unfold. Talking about a nail in the head, I’m not going to, really viewers out there go and have a look at it, it’s incredible. It’ll make sense to what I’m saying. 

0:15:45 Joel: But when you both take a step back from each other as kind of learning each other’s or aware of each other’s communication around certain issues, things get easier. The other thing which is really important, again, we touched on this briefly, men and women, when they are overwhelmed, they will deal with that overwhelm in different ways. And what men will tend to do is they tend to be very external about how they deal with problems. So, it’s a man will usually find themselves engaging alcohol, gambling, sex, drugs, rock and roll, whatever it is. Very external, very risk taking behavior, all that jazz. Whereas for a woman, what can happen is when these emotions go into play, it’s very internal. They turn it inwards on themselves through real negative comments, negative thought patterns. So unfortunately doing things like harming themselves, very internal. And when society responds to these situations, emergency services, you tend to find it’s the woman who gets the help from certain institutions, the health service because a lot of the health service in the UK is female led, particularly mental health. 

0:16:51 Joel: Whereas for a man when serious to get involved, it’s usually a man in the back of a police van being handcuffed. But it’s unfortunate the reality of it, the woman’s that rings up 999 say I have got problems with suicidal. They’ll probably get an ambulance and one police car. If a man rings up, somebody else rings up because a man’s being a bit violent, there’ll be six police cars outside and maybe the ambulance will come. I get the idea that of the protocol. But you can really see that massive contrast in regards to that situation. And then when they want to access support from mental health services, again, this is not a dig, it’s a reality that a lot of it’s female led and men can find it difficult to, not saying they don’t, but they find it difficult to speak to a woman who’s in front of them. Whereas it’s going to be easier for a woman to speak to a woman who’s a therapist from that perspective. So, you’ve got issues going on there straight away. 

0:17:47 Paula: I mean, I’m not speechless, I’m just processing because as you’ve said a lot in the last 20 minutes and what you’ve said is really, really, really of great importance to close that great divide. And something you just touched on was that men deal with a lot of things externally, whereas women are dealing with it internally and therefore even so the help that both men and women get differ just based on the way they deal with things. So, because of the, I mean I’m taking into consideration time. Can you talk about any lasting solutions that can help prevent irreversible choices for men?

0:18:34 Joel: Yeah. One of the reason which comes to mind on the simplest one that anybody can do is I talk about the idea of a brief intervention, a planting the seed with a man. So, lots of people use a stop at first day say, are you okay? The man goes fine and then you move on. But what can we really use to follow up that question again? Saying to man, are you okay? A man will say yes and actually putting on the end that are you really okay? What’s coming up for you? And that can open up the conversation a bit differently. And the most important thing anybody can do for a man is give them time and space. Make them a cup of tea. If you’re a woman and you got someone at home you’re worried about, make them a cup of tea and just sit down, don’t jump in straight away. Oh Don, I’m worried about your mental health. Just give them the space. If you just come home from work, at least let them sit, let them sit down and just hold that space. 

 

0:19:26 Joel: What it’s really important for people to understand and women, if you’re making a space for that man and they don’t talk, the man will still benefit from that. He will reflect on that. Remember men process things later. So if you’ve given them money, the opportunity doesn’t say anything. Don’t think it wasn’t worth it. It was because the man is picking up, the most beautiful thing you can offer to them is time and space. And that’s what they will do. And it’s important just to say to man, I’m here when you need me and leave them to it. Don’t go back five minutes later going, well okay, are you ready now we’ll talk about it. Just do it. And what’s really funny, this conversation with somebody was speaking with a lady that she was worried about, I think was her brother, had a chat. And I said, a way you can bring it in, plant a seed. If you’ve got a man’s group in your area, just plant the seed in there. And in the UK we’ve got something called Andy’s Man Club, which is really good to support men. And she said, well I’ve done that. I had a conversation with my brother, I gave him the space, I put the leaflet across the door for Andy’s man club. I said, that sounds really good. Then what happened? Oh well the week after went up to me, I said, have you been yet? I’m like, just, alright if you just did the week before you’ve killed it because a door has just been nailed shut.

0:20:39 Joel: I get the impression, good intentions, it was good intentions from her, but that was the worst thing you can do. You got to plant the seed and leave them on with it. And if he trusts you and you give him the space, he’ll come back to you and give you feedback. It might not be in your time period in your head, but he will trust you. And even if he doesn’t go, he knows you place he can come to. But something else. And that’s the whole thing of the door, opening the door, planting the seed, being at that perspective for a man that is gold and it takes 60 seconds or less to do that.

0:21:19 Tesse: You know, Joel, this is so powerful. What is occurring to me is its need for literacy. Emotional literacy that is pragmatic because a lot of the literature that I come across by Daniel Goldman and so on, it’s really good stuff. However, it doesn’t gender some of the strategies or the techniques enough. And what you have said is so powerful. What is helpful, what is unhelpful. So I’m going to ask a question because what a course to me and working with a lot of men, which I do, there’s a lot of ideas and a lot of intentions around achievement and success. I work with a lot of lawyers, accountants, actuaries, architects, engineers. These are the kind of people that I work with and they have a very high stake on success. And their bonuses and progression. And I hear what you’re seeing about the moving feasts and the treadmill. So from your insight and from the work that you are doing, how could men reframe success? What would your advice be or what would your kind of steers be for reframing success?

0:22:39 Joel: Yeah, reframing success. And again, I’m not surprised you said that a lot of those type of men are on the running machine because that’s what they put on. But the irony of it is a lot of them are being picked up that they’ve got to be better than mom or dad or all the rest of it. That’s what they’ve picked up from other people to be like daddy. And they’ll never be like dad because dad’s their person and their separate individual. And also as well, a lot of these men have picked the idea with success being based on external things outside themselves. You will be successful and you’ve got this car or this paycheck or they’re standing. Those aren’t real. Those are external things beyond control of any man. The only thing a man has control over is how they choose to react or respond to situations, individuals and events around them. That’s what they have control over. That’s what success is their ability as a man to navigate that situation from that degree. That’s what’s important. And that’s really important part of that education piece.

0:23:44 Joel: You already are a success because of the difference that you make as a man to people’s lives. That’s my understanding of success. If I can get out of bed in the morning or go to bed at night and I’ve had a conversation with somebody and I’ve made them think and I’ve gone away and do something differently, I’ve done my job. That’s success. That’s what you can’t be measured is that, not if my bank balance goes up, I’m happy, but if it goes down, I’m sad and I’m not a success. What unfortunately, that’s the mindset of a lot of men fall into, and it’s not. And very much what I said to a lot of people, success is like happiness. It comes and goes. It’s based on external things. Whereas for me, I don’t want to be happy, I don’t want to be successful, I want to be content. Whereas content is an internal state that I can choose to control based on how I choose to react or I respond, which goes right back to the beginning of what I spoke about before. It’s okay to be okay, it’s okay not to be okay. That’s the thing that matters.

0:24:44 Paula: Oh, Joel, that’s beautiful. It’s a beautiful note to end on as we round up this. And I want to say on behalf of you, thank you so much for explaining the way men think in general. It’s okay to be okay, but it’s just as good to be okay with not being okay. That’s a big part. Reframing, what success is. That’s another big part. It’s not dependent on, as you said, external things. It’s more than that. 

Outro

0:25:19 Paula: So, I want to say to our amazing audience, thank you so much for tuning in. Wasn’t that awesome? And if you think it’s awesome as I know you will, we ask that you head over to Apple podcast. Youtube podcast. Yes, YouTube has a podcast now and Spotify or anywhere else you listen to podcast and subscribe to TesseTalks and encourage others to subscribe as well. And as I said at the beginning, wasn’t that awesome? We asked therefore that you write us a Raven Review. And if you as our audience have questions or topics you’ll like us to cover that’s related to leadership and governance, please send us a note. Remember, it can be personal as well as professional. And if you’d like, be guest on the show, head to our website, which is TesseAkpeki.com/TesseTalks to apply.

0:26:09 Joel: And I was just going to say a final thing as well, which is important to put out there. If anybody does feel they need some support or they want to get more inspiration from me, please reach out for me. I’ll look on my website, www.rewireformen.com. Get in touch. There’s no harm having a 30 minute free discovery call just to see how I can make a difference to your life and empower you.

0:26:35 Paula: Thank you so much for that, Joel.

0:26:38 Tesse: Joel, you’re just amazing. Awesome. Thank you for all the work you’re doing in the world.

0:26:43 Joel: Thank you Tesse.

0:26:44 Tesse: We are in awe, thank you.

0:26:45 Joel: Thank you.